The AssetDash Podcast: The Solana Phone and Leverage in The Crypto Markets with Joe McCann

Solana Phone Podcast Title Image

Introduction

(0:11) Matias: I'm here with the man Joe McCann. I've been following Joe on Telegram for a good bit. Was early on a lot of different crypto trends because of him and his insight into what was happening in the space. He now has a fund called Asymmetric, which I'll let him introduce and give some background on, but we appreciate having on the show; Joe, and I guess to kick things off, you give some background yourself and the new fund you just launched.

(0:38) Joe: Yeah, thanks, Matias, great to be on the podcast. I know it's long overdue, so I'm very happy to be here. Yeah. So I'm Joe McCann, I'm founder and CEO of Asymmetric. We are a modern day crypto fund. I've been, you know, a trader, investor and technologist for going on 22 years now and a very active angel investor over the past few years. Prior to that, I was founder and CEO of a company called NodeSource, which is a Node.js company. Node.js, for what it's worth, the most popular open source project of the last decade, billions of downloads globally, one hundred percent of The Global 2000 uses it. And pretty much every web3 and crypto project uses it in some capacity. And so this has been helpful for me as an angel investor in crypto and web3 because crypto is open source by definition. So you know, I'm very deep into the Solana ecosystem, the Ethereum ecosystem, Cosmos ecosystem. I'm really chain agnostic. I’m really, really passionate about Solana though, given how I've kind of seen this movie before in open source and technology. But as a trader and investor, it's really cool to see open source kind of have this economic incentive that's tied to it. And so last year I started opining on the opportunity of launching a fund, actually a close friend of mine in the venture space really pushed me to do it. And so I've been very fortunate, so we launched the fund. We were running in stealth for quite some time, made the announcement in early may and we're up and running as of July 1st. And I will say very, very fortunate that we did not launch the fund earlier this year because man, a lot of funds are down like 70, 80% this year and we are flat. So, we're in a great spot. So yeah, the one thing I'll mention about Asymmetric that I think is somewhat relevant to the crossover of my background is crypto is programmable money. And so our view is really, you should probably be able to program if you're going to, you know, extract or identify opportunities in the space from an investment standpoint. And so we tend to think of ourselves kind of like a technology company with a funds mandate, and that has enabled us to really dig into a lot of the web3 and crypto ecosystems and identify not only really incredible founders, but also given our technical acumen and depth, the ability to really kind of identify signal from the noise. So that's the thing we're really excited about Asymmetric is, you know, we're a team of founders, builders, technologists, traders, and going to support that ecosystem for web3 is just a really a really grateful experience. 

How Lending Leverage Led To The Crypto Bear Market

(3:21) Matias: Amazing and yeah, great times to have dry powder, I guess first place to start.

I know you're heavily following the markets across the board. I'm in your Telegram chat, so it's, I know you cover everything, but mostly crypto focused, I guess, what are your general thoughts of what's happened over the past 70 days in particular with 3AC and some of the centralized crypto lenders. The first time seeing something of this magnitude in crypto. So where's your head at with all those?

(3:50) Joe: Yeah, absolutely. And let me just kind of preface this with this is absolutely whatsoever not financial advice, so purely for educational entertainment purposes only. So I actually, you know, kind of zoom out a little bit, or maybe not even zoom out, just kind of look back at previous crypto cycles where you saw these kind of massive drawdowns in price across the board and in a lot of cases – it has certainly over the past few years – been heavily driven towards leverage in the ecosystem. And the leverage was primarily available on your degen exchanges, right? So like BitMEX offering a hundred X leverage and then other exchanges of course, offering similar amounts of leverage. You could actually track the amount of leverage being used indirectly and somewhat directly by looking at funding rates and open interest, how the term structure was for a lot of these products, future products, etc. However, now, the majority of the leverage is out of the system, right? We saw in late November, early December, just a massive wash out of leverage in decentralized exchanges – decentralized exchanges to some extent, but that's a different kind of challenge because those tend to be heavily over collateralized leverage positions. Whereas things on centralized exchanges is the complete opposite. You could post a tiny fraction of collateral and get a hundred X leverage. Right? That's not really the case right now. So the past couple of months, we've had a different type of leverage come and wreak havoc in the ecosystem and it is the lending leverage, the credit leverage and a lot of it stems from Three Arrows. Leverage – I mentioned this on Twitter a few times or Telegram or something – in crypto, it's the grim reaper. It comes for everybody at some point if you use it. I highly recommend against using leverage in crypto because crypto is the kind of asset class where if you just survive, you will do extremely well, right? Now, the challenge with Three Arrows is, and I don't know Sue and Kyle directly, but I know them indirectly. I actually think it's a rather tragic story given what they have been able to accomplish in kind of their 10 years in crypto, these were ARB traders and you know, arbitrage traders tend to not use leverage, however, they saw an opportunity, I think, to utilize their kind of prowess and position and prestige in the marketplace to lever their funds up to generate those kind of outsized returns and the grim reaper came for them. There have been a couple of these types of levered trades tied to the GBTC discount and premium trade. And I won't go into the details of what that arb actually looks like, but it has been a trade that a lot of folks have put on. I personally did not put that trade on. I was against it. You know, the notion that GBTC had never traded in a discount before, somehow presuming that wouldn't ever change to me was just, I don't know, maybe I've just been in markets too long. Like the thing always ends up doing the thing that you don't expect. However the lending desks that are involved in providing this, these loans to Three Arrows to allow them to lever up, that's where we're starting to see the contagion effect. Right? So we've seen a number of these companies, either are bankrupt, going bankrupt insolvent, going insolvent, looking for bailouts, looking for help, whatever it may be. That is the result, I think, of the contagion from Three Arrows specifically. Again, I don't know this for certain, but if you kind of look underneath what's happening in the lending markets, and I do have some level of insight to this with some of the lending desks that we speak with, there's a lot of contagion running through the system. Has it run its course? Probably not. We may end up seeing, you know, some other shoe to drop, so to speak, beyond the kind of CeFi lending platforms that I think everybody's familiar with. Like your BlockFi, your Vauld – I think that's the one out of Singapore or India. Babel, Voyager, Celsius. All of these folks are caught up in this contagion. I would actually argue that the next shoe to drop – and again, this is purely speculation – may be in the Bitcoin miner space. And historically, even though, obviously quote “this time is different”, historically, when miners tend to capitulate, that usually marks a local or even, you know, actual bottom. And so, although I can't predict the future, what I would speculate on is that the lending contagion is going to – and I do know that it's already starting to affect a number of the Bitcoin miners. If and when Bitcoin's price gets to a low enough level, you'll just have these miners full on capitulate because mining business has input costs of electricity and hardware. And well, the output is really dependent on the price of Bitcoin and what, you know, you can sell it for relative to what the cost of your miners were and your electricity, etc. And so a lot of these miners, guess what? Take out loans to get their hardware. So if we had leverage, kind of washing out in, call it the DeFi ecosystem and then the CeFi ecosystem. Well, where all, where else are all these loans being made? And from my understanding, it's to Bitcoin miners, and I don't wish any of these companies any harm or default, but at the end of the day, if it is entirely unprofitable to run your Bitcoin mining operation, you're likely going to default on those loans. And so I would, again, speculate that the next shoe to drop could potentially be with the Bitcoin miners and the lending, and the loans that they've taken out to fund their operations. 

(10:12) Matias: That's a really great point. And on the Bitcoin mining topic, so, $CORZ, the publicly traded miner, came out today, that they sold, I think, the majority of their holdings at Bitcoin in 20K. And then last week we heard that Bitfarms used fresh capital to buy at 40K. Sold all the Bitcoin they bought at 40K at 20K. Which is probably an indicator aligned with what you're saying right now. 

(10:38) Joe: Yeah. I mean, and that's, that is very consistent with what we see with local or actual bottoms in crypto cycles is when the Bitcoin miners finally capitulate. We, I don't think we've seen the effect of the Bitcoin miners that have loans that they're defaulting on. So what's interesting right now with crypto relative to, I think, the prior cycles, is that because so much money was made in 2021, and furthermore, so much money was pumped into companies, you know, even in the public sector. The various Bitcoin miners or companies that pivoted in Bitcoin mining, or even have Bitcoin on their balance sheet, like microstrategy. You know, the fact that these companies had taken in so much capital – Bitcoin was trading above 50K for a while. I think a lot of people just got ahead of their skis when, in reality, buying mining equipment when Bitcoin is 50K is not necessarily the best time to be kind of, you know, expanding your business, so to speak. And I think the difference with now versus previous cycles is the fact that we've got this sort of distressed asset situation that just hasn't existed before.

You know, you've had miners go bankrupt, that's for sure. And people have, you know, kind of picked those off and, and acquired them at pennies on the dollar, but we haven't had multiple unicorn based startups just go from $4 billion evaluation to almost zero overnight. It just hasn't happened in a previous cycle. And so I think that the, what we're seeing or we'll see, again, just speculating here, is distressed market start to actually surface and materialize for crypto and, candidly, that is actually healthy long term for the broader crypto and web3 ecosystem. It's just more of what traditional finance or alternative asset management expects to have in place for a burgeoning asset class, right?

Like, distressed debt or distress asset funds have been around for a long time. But they haven't actually been targeting towards crypto and web3. And so I think we'll actually start to see some of that spring up over the course of the rest of this year. 

(13:02) Matias: Right. And one of the points you brought up earlier that I want to touch on is DeFi protocols have actually held up, not price wise, but the actual function of the protocols have held up very strong in this process. They were able to liquidate the collateral, I haven't seen or heard of anything that says otherwise, it’s all on chain, so we have full access into it. Do you think this adds another, I guess badge to the DeFi value prop of those protocols, being able to withstand a situation like this, where they're centralized counterparts were not?

(13:40) Joe: Yeah. You mean, software where no human beings are involved, actually did what it was supposed to do versus when you had human beings involved? Look, I’m obviously kind of joking around, but the biggest boom, I think, from this longer term with the CeFi lenders going through the pain that they've gone through, is the strengthening resolve of self custody solutions. Now, the challenge with self custody is the user experience, right? Like, normy person A doesn't know how to manage their private key, doesn't know how to use MetaMask, right? Like, there's a lot of UX challenges that still exist, but those are solvable problems. Right? The beauty of these DeFi protocols actually working is that they are working, right, like, as intended. And I think this is the point of a lot of these DeFi protocols. I mean, for what it's worth.

I have never used a CeFi related lender. I just always used on chain. Now I'm a more technical person or early adopter, etc. Like I know the risk involved in using a DeFi protocol versus a CeFi protocol, a CeFi service. And I also know, you know, how to manage my own keys and, and self custody, right? But there's no doubt in my mind that on one hand you will, you potentially will see this become a political issue in the United States, right? Especially if some of these companies try to utilize customer funds to, you know, manage the holes in their balance sheet or manage a wind down of the company, that would be, I think, ripe for regulation, but that type of regulation, I don't think is necessarily a net negative thing. I think it just, again, underscores the value proposition of DeFi protocols and self custody. So what we can do, I think in, you know, in the broader builder community in web3 and crypto, is continue to focus on that user experience enabling normal people if you will, not your early adopters and super technically savvy folks to adopt crypto and understand the value of self custody. And, you know, I think one of the latest announcements that's going to help hopefully push this through, at a pretty large clip, will be Solana’s phone saga, right? I mean, now you have a phone which can act as that self custody solution. Well, what does that mean from a technical standpoint, a security standpoint, a user experience standpoint? We don't know yet, but that's the point is like, we've gotta try. And as the builder community starts to embrace, whether it's the Solana phone, it's a handful of other devices, whatever it may actually be, to actually start to improve that user experience so that folks can understand the value of DeFi protocols and blockchain more generally.

Joe McCann Shares His Thoughts On Scaling The Solana Phone

(16:35) Matias: Yeah, and that's a perfect segue. I wanted to move right into the phone right after this, cause I do think it's a huge step in the right direction for user experience. There is a lot of unknowns. So I guess like the first unknown, and maybe you have insight here; in general, it's very hard to scale a hardware phone but one of the things that I have been seeing on Twitter from Anatoly and I think he makes a great point and as somebody who has a mobile app now who has to push into the app store every week or so, I'm kind of familiar with this experience. One of the points that Anatoly made was, you know, a web3 phone with 50,000 users, with the app store that they plan to build is, you know, very impactful compared to the options we have today. So I guess, what are your thoughts on some of the scaling issues? And if you had to predict how the trajectory of the phone goes from launch, maybe the first to second year in terms of user growth, like where's your head out with the, with everything there?

(17:29) Joe: Yeah, I love this question ‘cause the conversation, this thing came up repeatedly when the phone announcement came out and you know, maybe just because I'm old, but I've seen this movie before and there's so many ways of attacking this point. One, if you look at – let me back up. Most people will see the announcement of something like the Solana phone and be like, oh, it'll never scale. Oh, you're competing with Apple. Oh, there's a massive CAPEX investment. Oh, how are you going to go to market and compete? All of that misses the point and let me explain why. So, today, how do we go about getting more users onto web3 and crypto? Well, it's primarily through a desktop browser or/and some kind of potentially cludgy experience with a wallet or a number of wallets, right? Now, and I'm not saying that we have kind of saturated that go to market attempt, but it's the only way right now for the most part, right? Unless somebody's like spinning up an Ethereum node and, or mining Bitcoin or something, right. Which very few people are going to do. So that raises the question, well, how do we get more people into crypto, web3? And a phone is by far a very, very clear wedge into breaking open a new, you know, user base, if you will. The thing is, is that when people only focus on the first order effects of something like a Solana phone, they're missing the bigger, longer term strategy here. So everybody says it'll never scale. Everybody says it's too CAPEX, expensive, et cetera, et cetera. Well, let me run a couple of different scenarios that have happened in the past with companies I think everybody's familiar with. So Amazon, you know, burgeoning startup, right? They launched a phone, I don't know if folks listening remember this, but it was called the fire phone, Amazon fire phone. And it was ridiculed by every analyst and every pundit and every Apple fanboy out there. And was the fire phone a success from the first order effect? Well, the answer is no, because no one uses it. It's not around really anymore. But what were the second order effects of that? The second order effects that most people don't realize is that the fire phone actually helped optimize a very successful service that Amazon has called Alexa. So if you've ever used Amazon Alexa, the fire phone had a big, you know, part of that service success and then Alexa ultimately led to the Echo, which is the speaker that people install in their homes. And they can tell, you know, Amazon, order me more paper towels or whatever, right. That is a massively successful service for Amazon. But it started primarily with the launch of this phone, why? Well, one, they had to learn how they were going to build hardware. They have to understand that whole end-end process, which Amazon can certainly figure out. Two, there's the logistics behind it. Three, there's a software service and infrastructure components, which they can do with AWS and their engineering staff. Right? Four, it's a mobile device. Now granted the Echo speaker isn't mobile per se. It doesn't move around, but it is a peripheral different than, say, a desktop or laptop computer, right? So the learnings that they got from something like the fire phone led them to Alexa and the Echo speaker. Now, again, I wanna be clear here that wasn't the only reason that Alexa and the Echo speaker were successful. I'm saying it had a lot to do with the impact and influence on it. So first order effect, failure, second order effects, massively successful. Now, let's take the counterexample of this. Google launched their first Android phone, and I'm dating myself here, called the G1. And I had it because I started building a bunch of Android apps in the earliest days, which was super painful to do. That phone was, technically, a success. Google still has multiple phones, right. They release a new phone seemingly every year or every 18 months or something like that. There's a huge Android ecosystem. They have about 76% global market share of mobile phones today that run Android. Of course, they're not all Google phones, but they were successful with that. But what, why was Google launching a phone? They were not – Google is not a hardware company. Apple is a hardware company and it shows in their margins. Google is a software company. So what does the phone enable? The phone enables people to… conduct mobile search, right? Google spends billions of dollars every year to be the default search option on the iPhone, a competitive phone to Google's phones, right? Why? Because search is their core business. And if they can ensure that this explosion that was due to happen, this was, I think the G1 came out in like 2008 or 2009. They were forecasting an explosion of these smart, you know, phones and guess what people are going to search on them. Well, we better get in the space to understand how we can optimize the user experience and our backend services for mobile and even contextually related search. So for example, if you search for stuff on your mobile phone, it will utilize your GPS coordinates, right? It will utilize certain contextual features like what time of day it is or what time zone you're in or what – you know, I mentioned the GPS – what city you're in, what neighborhood you're in, right? This isn't possible on a desktop computer because it doesn't move around. So the point is, is that the phone – yes, the G1 was a “success” from the first order effect, but it was also massively successful for the second order effects, which was not only mobile search, but also mobile ads and then all the ads that Google is going to serve up, whether it's through the browser, through search or through apps themselves. So the reason I bring this up is that it is so patently cliche for folks on crypto Twitter to be like “Solana phone is going to be a failure, no one's going to use it” right? Like, of course people are going to say that. And by the way, if people weren't saying that. Man, I would be really concerned because, ‘cause then, then it's almost guaranteed to be a failure. So I would look at it in two ways. One, could the Solana phone be successful at the first order of effect? Absolutely. It could. Is it a tall order? Absolutely. Absolutely it is. But two, the second order of effects here are that we can have the potential for people to utilize the device that they use every single day, more than they probably look at anything else as their mobile phone, as a means to getting people into crypto and web3.

Will it be successful? We do not know. However, the fact that Anatoly and Raj are taking this incredibly ambitious approach to try it suggests to me that Solana has a much longer thesis that they're playing out about how they want to engage normal people, consumers, you know, non-technical, non crypto native people to start to get into cryptography and web3.

(25:06) Matias: Amazing explanation. And on that point, and you probably have great insights here from the fund perspective, do you think teams now building on Solana, moving forward, would you be surprised if teams put more of their focus into building the X NFT app version before the web version? Or how do you see that playing out from a development standpoint?

(25:29) Joe: Yeah, it's a great question. And I actually don't know the answer. The way I would look at it is that, if you go back to again, you know, the kind of like 2006, 2007 timeframe. Web2 was really kind of kicking off, you started to have the early growth of Facebook. you had the growth of MySpace. So social was becoming a thing. You had immersive, rich web applications, you know, things that we take for granted on certain web browsers today, with like partial page reloads or like dynamic content being surfaced without having to reload the page, like all that stuff was like still relatively new back then, but it was starting to unlock a lot of new, developer potential for what the web could actually look like and now enter this, this smartphone. Well, a smartphone – I remember this because I built a lot of these apps back in the day. Once the iPhone launched and Android became a thing, it was like 2009, 2010. Every company was like oh, we need a mobile app. Right? We gotta build a mobile app. And I remember Pennzoil, which is like a company that literally makes oil for your car, had an app. And I'm like, why does Pennzoil have an app? They don't need, there's no point in having an app. Furthermore, and this is what happened more consistently, is that every brand manager for some company said, all right, we gotta take our website and we gotta shove it into an app. Why does that fail? One, there is no qwerty keyboard. There's no physical keyboard or mouse, right? When you design a website for the desktop, you are assuming there's some display, maybe, at a minimum, it's 1024 x 768 pixels. You assume that there's peripherals like a mouse and a keyboard. So the form factor is very different on a phone. There is no keyboard. Right now – this is not entirely true, yes, the G One had like a slide out keyboard, but for the most part, like, the iPhone had no keyboard and candidly, most phones today do not have a keyboard. It’s also a flat surface, right? So the experience of building for a mobile app is very, very different because you have a lot of scrolling and swiping. You also have new types of sensors, right? You have the gyroscope and the GPS and the camera and the, you know, – there's all kinds of different new capabilities that just don't exist in the browser on your laptop or desktop. And then, finally, I kind of alluded to this previously. The contextual nature of mobile is very different than building, say, a web app or website for the desktop, right? Like the fact that you can be in a certain place at a certain time changes the types of applications and experiences you as a developer can actually focus on. So as it relates to Solana and Solana devs, what will they do? I think you'll probably see a similar repeat. In some cases, you'll have folks that just build mobile, you know, first applications for Solana that can potentially sort of take in context. And the addition of the various sensors and you know hardware related specs that come with a phone that developers have access to. But in addition to that, folks that already have existing Solana apps, it's TBD. Because, in some cases, if you just say wanna make it as an X NFT app, which I won't try to explain on this podcast what that actually means, but It's not as, I don't wanna say it's as simple as just like, oh, I built this app for the web browser on the desktop, and now I'm just going to like package it for the mobile device.

It's not, it's rarely that simple. So I think that there is going to be a lot of experimentation iteration for apps that currently exist in the Solana ecosystem. But what I'm really excited about is to see what folks are going to be developing natively for the phone, right. Focusing on a mobile first experience. What are those developers going to do? And the last thing I'll mention here, which I think really brings a lot of the kind of broader scope of what's capable with something like Solana is that if you, if you look at what they've done, right? So they launch their L one. They've been experiencing hyper growth with developers, the number of programs, AKA smart contracts deployed on chain. Activity is rising up into the right, all that good stuff. Then they announced Solana pay, right? So this is a payments rails based on USDC. Right? Well, we all know the payments industry is pretty big and pretty important. Now what's the next thing that they launch is a mobile phone, right? Payments, mobile phone. Yes, we've had congested on the network, but we're starting to see that dramatically improve based on some of the new patches and the releases of Solana’s core infrastructure. Well, what's the next thing going to be that you tie all this together with? And here's a little alpha that is publicly available. So it's not material non-public information whatsoever. It's absolutely on their Twitter. If you notice Twitter has an account, I believe it's called @solanaspaces and this is a retail environment. What does this look like? There's job openings right now for a Solana retail experience. So let's look at this. Let's zoom out a little bit. If you have, if you're fixing the performance issues with the chain, making it super performant and scalable, which they are. Then you launch a payment capability, then you launch a phone and now you're going to have a retail experience. That looks very different than basically any other layer one out there. And that is one of the reasons why Solana has been such a major focus of mine. Is that it's not that Ethereum is bad or Cosmos ecosystem is bad, or any of these other chains are bad. They're just limited by their design, currently, right? Like your software can change over time, but I'm saying currently. You can't send push notifications through Ethereum, it just doesn't work, right. It will not work. You can do this on chain with Solana. You can't enable you know, call it subsecond, payment confirmation with USDC in a merchant experience with Ethereum. You just, you can't. The confirmation time is too slow. Again, this can improve over time and yes, there's L two’s S and yada, yada yada. But the point that I'm getting to is: Solana is not just a settlement layer, it's an execution environment. And what that unlocks for developers is massive. The spectrum of applications is orders of magnitude larger than any other L one. And it is demonstrated by their strategy. They've gotta perform at L one, that's super cheap, and easy to use. They now have payment capabilities that are natively available to developers building on Solana. They have a phone that you can imagine will have payment capabilities based on Solana pay. And they're now going to be focusing on what the retail experience is like. So, you know again like, yes, I've been bullish Solana for a very long time and know this is not financial advice and no this is not, you know, a suggestion for anyone to go buy any asset or any security. But I'm simply saying, if you look at that layout and go: if they're successful, how big is this? It's massive. That's the answer. Now, could they fail on one or all of these things? Absolutely. They are a series A funded startup that's running an open source protocol, right? Give me a break. This isn’t Apple, right? So, expect some things to fail, expect some things to break, expect volatility represented in price, et cetera, et cetera. But, to me, it's such an exciting time when you look at what Solana is enabling and furthermore, what could be the potential other chains going forward, whether they're existing L one’s or they're going to be new L one’s or they're going to be, you know, some new type of protocol altogether that looks at the approach Solana has taken strategically and go, hey, we like that approach, but we wanna do it differently. I think that's extremely healthy long term for web3 overall.

Joe McCann shares his thoughts on MonkeDao

(33:57) Matias: Love that. And I wanna be careful with your time. I know we're coming up here at the end of it, but I had to ask you one question about MonkeDAO, just ‘cause I keep seeing all these monkeys in the background. Quick question about MonkeDAO, looks like MonkeDAO is actually buying Solana monkey from the original devs. Any thoughts on that?

(34:19) Joe: Yeah, look, so I'm not super close to the deal. Obviously I'm in MonkeDAO and have been from day one and have a bunch of monkeys. I think this is kind of the result of the community taking action, this is not a judgment against the original SMB team whatsoever. I mean, in my opinion, they've created effectively like the crypto punks of Solana, right. It's pretty, pretty important. I just think that when you have a strong community that has the will and drive to want to continue to improve and move things forward, this is the net result, right? There was obviously some consternation between MonkeDAO and SMB originally. And I think that that has largely been squashed and resolved. I think going forward, there's a lot of potential with what MonkeDAO can do because they've been first, but more importantly, they are so highly organized and that is incredibly necessary for what I kind of see as almost like an open source or an extension of open source. If you look at open source projects that have been successful, it's not the tech, it's the community behind it. And it's almost cliche to say, but it's true. So when you have a very vibrant, hyperactive and committed community pushing an open source project, it's very difficult for that open source project to fail or not pick up steam or traction, right? MonkeDAO or DAOs in general to me are kind of like the extension of open source applied to politics or governance. And MonkeDAO has done, I think, an amazing job of getting this global network of folks together with the desire to push this project forward. And they're doing exactly that. Now. I spoke with some folks, you know, a couple months ago that were like, hey, we're thinking about maybe this approach for financing or that approach. And I said, look, I'm not involved, I'm not going to be involved, but I think, if you have the resolve to get this done with the SMB team, it's a net win for everybody long term. And ultimately, I think the deal that they ended up cutting was net beneficial to everybody. So yes, of course I have a lot of monkeys and I'm obviously talking my book here, but I do think MonkeDAO is the case study for how an organization, that is highly organized, can be effective in a conflict resolution with a project like SMB.

(36:44) Matias: Completely agree, kudos to the leadership team. And you go to any crypto conference in the world, you land, you post a monkey out, there's 40 other monkeys there waiting to meet. So, really unique experience. Joe, you've been fantastic. I feel like we need to turn all of this into little clips because it's all alpha and amazing information and I really appreciate you jumping it on.

(37:02) Joe: Hey man, my pleasure, We’ll have to do it again soon.

(37:05) Well, take care.

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